Once in a Lifetime Opportunity

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Once in a lifetime offer!

An original thread from the Hivemind Mailing list archives, originally appeared on the list and the old wiki and has been restored to former glory on the new wiki.

It all started off when someone posted a job offer

Simon Edwards:

I am in urgent need of a web designer who is well versed in html, asp, and
Java. The job opportunity is a once in a lifetime offer where there are
limitless opportunities to grow and expand. This job is optimal for guys who
are also eager to study further in the IT industry. The job means that you
will administer one of the biggest and most active web sites in South
Africa. The company offering the position is based in Rosebank in the IS
building and is a small time ISP as well as a media streaming company.
If anyone is interested or knows of anyone who is interested in the position
please contact me directly on spinny@xxxxxxx.co.za


Antoine van Gelder:

> The job opportunity is a once in a lifetime offer
Pardon the cynicism, but isn't that stretching it just a tad ?
Moreover, what are the chances of an intelligent human being being
prepared to work for a company indulging in this kind of hyperbole?
Or is this just a smart-aleck filter which will ensure that no one who
could possibly make a meaningful contribution would want to go and work
there ?


Simon Edwards:

Don't get all critical on me now.
All I am asking for is a Web Designer
Why do you guys always read between the lines and criticize every thing that anyone does.
All I need is some help here not some criticism.


Antoine van Gelder:

*shrug*
Just trying to be helpful :>


Johann Visagie:

> Pardon the cynicism, but isn't that stretching it just a tad?
What?! Egads, no - he wouldn't *possibly*, would he?
Whoo-hoo. A life of Web design in a Windows environment! What could I
possibly be waiting for...? This sort of opportunity knocks but once!
Excuse me while I drop whatever it was I was doing...


Simon Edwards:

If you aren't going to be helpful then just leave the message alone and
stop mocking it! I really cant wait till you make a small typo, but
please take note that I will not mock or critisise your mistakes.


Jon Tullett:

> If you aren't going to be helpful then just leave the message alone
> and stop mocking it! I really cant wait till you make a small typo
You, er, left the apostrophe out of "can't"...


Johann Visagie:

> You, er, left the apostrophe out of "can't"...
I'm sure he was merely compensating for all those people who use
apostrophe's in place's where they are entirely unnecessary.
PS: I am still desperately looking for a copy of Dave Barry's book
Tip's for Writer's, which is apparently a collection of
his Dear Mister Language Person columns.
A recent favourite, touching on another of my pet hates:
Q. Like millions of Americans, I cannot grasp the extremely subtle
difference between the words "your" and "you're."
A. Top grammar scientists are often confused by these two words,
which are technically known as "bivalves," or words that appear
to be identical and have hinged shells. The best way to tell them
apart is to remember that "you're" is a contraction, which is a
type of word used during childbirth, as in: "Hang on, Marlene,
here comes you're baby!" Whereas "your" is, grammatically, a
prosthetic infarction, which means a word that is used to score a
debating point in an Internet chat room, as in: "Your a looser, you
morron!"
Q. What about "yore?
A. That refers to "the days of yore," when there was a lot of yore
lying around, as a result of pigs. Also in those days, men would
augment their personal regions by wearing "codpieces," which were
pieces of actual cod.
Q. Yuck.
A. Yore telling us.
http://www.herald.com/content/archive/living/barry/1999/docs/dec05.htm

Simon Edwards:

I'm glad you find it so funny...


Samantha Perry:

relax, it's Monday, have more coffee...


Simon Edwards:

And by the way it is a once in a lifetime offer because as far as I am
concerned no one else will be hired and thus it is a once in a lifetime
opportunity to join this company. Not once in a lifetime opportunity to
get offered a job or be a web designer.


Johann Visagie:

Thank you for the clarification. I certainly will be reading job ads with
new, enhanced understanding from now on. :-)


Samantha Perry:

I think Simon is going to have a nervous breakdown soon.... LOL ...
sorry Simon...


Ant Brooks:

Simon:
> The job opportunity is a once in a lifetime offer
And later:
> All I need is some help here not some criticism.
An observation: The hivemind seems to react better to honesty than it
does to hyperbole. Because you asked for help, I've decided to assist
you in making your post more honest:
Your version:
I am in urgent need of a web designer who is well versed in html,
asp, and Java. The job opportunity is a once in a lifetime offer...
Suggested rewrite:
I need someone with HTML, ASP and Java skills. The job opportunity
is a once in a lifetime offer in the sense that once we've filled
the position, we won't need anyone else to do the same job.
Your version:
...where there are limitless opportunities to grow and expand.
Suggested rewrite:
There will be limitless opportunities to grow and expand. Obviously
though, we still need you to do your job so your growing and expanding
opportunities are only limitless as long as they don't interfere with
your work.
Your version:
This job is optimal for guys who are also eager to study further in the
IT industry.
Suggested rewrite:
This job is optimal for guys who are also eager to study further in
the IT industry, but more in the sense that we'll give you three jobs
worth of work to do and you'll be forced to learn new skills to
survive, than in the sense that we'll provide actual training.
Your version:
The job means that you will administer one of the biggest and most
active web sites in South Africa.
Suggested rewrite:
The job means that you will administer one of the biggest and most
active web sites in South Africa. Expect to end up doing work over
weekends.
Your version:
The company offering the position is based in Rosebank in the IS
building and is a small time ISP as well as a media streaming
company.
Suggested rewrite:
The company offering the position is based in Rosebank in the IS
building and is a small time ISP as well as a media streaming
company. We're also too paranoid to include our name or the name
of the relevant web site in this advertisement.
Simon, I am sorry to mock you like this, but if you are going to post
lies^H^H^Hexaggerations to the hivemind, expect people notice
(especially the cynical ones :-).


John Anderson:

> There will be limitless opportunities to grow and expand.
> Obviously though, we still need you to do your job so your
> growing and expanding opportunities are only limitless as
> long as they don't interfere with your work."
Ectoplasmic goo found oozing from office windows. Whereabouts of web designer unknown.
"Like a freshly risen loaf of bread" a bystander was heard to say.


Ant Brooks:

If you are serious about attracting someone for this position, why hide
behind meaningless hyperbole? Why not include more *useful* information
in the post, as in this sample text:
If you have some web-skills (HTML, ASP, Java), and if you are prepared
to work pretty hard, then this might be a good chance to expand your
knowledge while getting paid. The pay will be fair, but we can't afford
anyone *really* expensive. We realise that you will probably eventually
leave the company, but if you show enough common sense and drive, we're
awake enough to try to keep you on board. The people here are pretty
good to work with, but some of the contacts on the client side can be
pretty bureaucratic and dull. We will try to minimise the amount of
meetings you have to attend, but there will be some. We have a fairly
flexible approach to working hours, but there will be some customer-
contact, so your hours need to overlap at least partially with standard
office hours. We provide free tea, coffee and snacks, but there is a rule
that the person who takes the last cup has to refill the coffee machine.
We don't limit staff access to the Internet, but if you spend the whole
day posting to mailing lists, expect to stay late to get some actual work
done. We're based in Rosebank, Johannesburg."
I suspect that I'm not the only person who would react better to something
like this than to your original post.


Johann Visagie:

That's lovely, Ant - very honest. Made me think, though. I suspect
that the people who mostly write the copy for placement ads probably
use hyperbole to make the job sound like something *they* would find
ideal. This does not mean that these ads are necessarily going to be
suited to advertising technical positions. I think there's a lucrative,
as-yet unexploited market for lia^H^H^Hcopywriters targeting the
technical work force.
Imagine:
Limitless opportunities to explore whatever new, interesting and
exciting technologies take your fancy. Unlimited budget to buy
computer equipment. High-speed Internet connection to be under your
direct control. Generous budget to attend whatever technical
training courses you may need. Guaranteed no interference from
management in your choice of implementation technology. All
deadlines guaranteed to be realistic and reachable. Competent
and intelligent co-workers who will understand your technological
decisions and work well with you as a team, but will respect your
privacy when you want to go solo on a project. All specifictions
guaranteed to be completed 100% before implementation begins; no
changes whatsoever will be made or indeed tolerated once implementation
has started. Knowledgeable, supportive management who respect your
opinion on technical matters, who understand the technology well enough
to implement a feasible business plan, and who have the ability to
provide you with the infrastructure and resources to do your job
properly. Unlimited access to the coffee machine. Fridge stocked
with Coke at all times."
I suspect most technical people would be willing to work that job
for... oh, 2 - 3K a month. Stuff limitless opportunities. Stuff
once in a lifetime. Stuff stock options - who needs that?
Of course, since technical people tend to be realists they will
probably be even less inclined to believe this sort of ad. In fact,
they pretty much assume the exact opposite of everything stated here,
and demand ten times the salary and a bundle of stock options to
make up for the inconvenience of having to put up with mor^H^H^Hother
people.


Antoine van Gelder:

Throw in a place to sleep and I'll pay _you_!
 :>


Simon Edwards:

The point I am trying to bring across is that I am offering a job, the
posting I put on is exact to the words. Also I don't think anyone has the
right to try and rewrite my posting as they are not the guys who know
details. If a person is interested they want me details and come to me. As
for not mentioning the site and company name, its because I am in a NDA with
them and therefore not allowed to mention it.
Sorry Ant but I find no help in yout mocking and critisisim and editing of
my posting. When I refer to help I mean for you guys to respond and tell me
if you know anyone who is looking for a job. Come on Hivemind you guys can
do better than this. I thought we were a community!!!


Ant Brooks:

Then I don't think you are listening.
> When I refer to help I mean for you guys to respond and tell me
> if you know anyone who is looking for a job. Come on Hivemind you guys
> can do better than this. I thought we were a community!!!
Let's try summarising this thread so far:
Simon: I need someone for a job.
hivemind: You have the wrong approach.
Simon: You aren't helping.
hivemind: You have the wrong approach.
Simon: You aren't helping.
If you haven't picked up any clues to the problem by this stage,
you probably aren't going to. Oh well, *shrug*.


Simon Edwards:

I'm not looking for critical help I'm looking for actual help in finding
someone to fill this position. I think on the other side of the ball you
guys seem to have the wrong approach in the way you help me.


Antoine van Gelder:

Funny that... people who know they need help, they ask for help, they
then refuse to accept the help because it conflicts with their
preconceptions of the form the help should take.
I've worked for people like this before. It can be quite unpleasant and
a tad frustrating.
- You are asked to do a job by your employer.
- Being the person doing the job, you often have information/knowledge
about the job that your employer doesn't have.
- Your employer prevents you from doing the job because he is not
prepared to adapt his requirements to information that you have and he doesn't.
- The work suffers and you get penalised for it.
My sympathies to any sucker conned into working for this poor, deluded,
psychopath who probably still thinks that a social atmosphere of baas
and kaffer is the correct way of life for a community.


Simon Edwards:

Sorry but I think that perhaps you are being a bit prude there...
But hey what did I say before, "I wont mock or critisise you."
I have to say that I gave out the best information that I could but somehow
I don't think you read in my previous postings but I am in a NDA and thus
restricted by law from giving out anymore information than what I have
reviled.


Jon Tullett:

Ant tried summarising, so I'll keep with that approach.
It'll work eventually.
- You tried to post a job ad.
- You did in a way that the hivemind did not take seriously.
- That will not find you an employee.
- The hivemind tried to suggest ways you might post it that would
be more likely to work.
- You took offence, instead of just trying Ant's suggested approach.
Now, you need to find an employee, Ant didn't need to help. Did you
actually want helpful criticism, or are you just expecting us to eventually
cave in under your repeated mindless wailings[1] and say "you're right!
we're all wrong! your job posting was wonderful! take me! take me!"
It's not likely.
Now. Ant pointed out that what was seriously lacking from your original
post was any kind of useful information. You respond:
> Also I don't think anyone has the right to try and rewrite my posting
> as they are not the guys who know details.
But:
1. You didn't provide any details either.
2. He didn't rewrite it.
He suggested you rewrite it, and gave you some ideas to work from.
> If a person is interested they want me details and come to me.
Given your original offer, you're going to get the type of people that
answer "Make $$$$ Fast!!!!!" ads, too. Me, I'd rewrite it. There's a term:
"quality of applicant" that is going to be appropriate here.
Basically, you posted something dumb, got shot down for it, took offence,
received a suggestion to fix it, and went all spiky and hissy instead of
actually taking the advice, all the while bitching that advice was all you
wanted. That's puerile. Get a clue.
[1] I don't need to help either.


Damian Costa:

Weeeee this _IS_ Fun! I want ring side seats. How many rounds is this
fight! It seams a bit unfair though.
One middle weight against all these heavy weights.....


Anton de Wet:

Hey there is only one way to learn realy fast, is to be outclassed badly
by ppl that like to teach :)


Simon Edwards:

I am asking for your help without any questions. It's not that hard to
do, but it seems that Hivemind seems to have a problem with trying to
understand that.


Antoine van Gelder:

> I am asking for your help without any questions.
Aha! There's your fundamental mistake.
You posted to completely the wrong list !
The hive suffers from an unfortunate tendency to ask questions before following orders.
So sorry, you might want to try posting your job offer to
alt.i.want.to.be.a.mindless.cog.in.a.big.machine instead.
Trust me, you wouldn't want to hire anyone from the hive anyway.
We're all smart-aleck wankers here who would rather make you look silly than
help you run a successful business.


Alicia Woolf:

Speak for yourself, Antoine.
love [still!] :>


Antoine van Gelder:

/me *bopples* alicia with the ironystick(tm)
lovelovelovelove


Rocco Strauss:

... not necessarily ... IMO ...I don't think there's many
of us who'd want to buy that "quaint fixer-upper for active
couple that enjoy gardening" : because it's PROBABLY too
small, needs a great deal of hard work - (probably too much to pay
for) so you'd have to be hard working (active/young) to be able to
do the work, and fix up the hell in the garden.
I don't think anyone's going to take on the estate agent who posts
that ad in the same way some have ripped Simon apart? If I wanted
to make sure I was correct in my ASSUMPTIONS, I'd ask for a
viewing ... but then I KNOW I don't like gardening anyway,
so it would not interest me further than the first read of the ad.
... just like there's enough brains on this list to see that the
job offered is not for them, and that it's based on the same type
of generalised explanations offered by many HR ads ...
If you want more info, ask for it ... if not, delete it.


Simon Edwards:

I am grateful that you see this in my light


Jon Tullett:

But Simon's ad wasn't ripped apart. It was pointed out, albeit somewhat
sarcastically, that the phrasing "once in a lifetime" was a hyperbole
unlikely to generate a positive response. It probably would have been left
there - Gary (I think?) who pointed that out is presumably not interested in
the house, and doesn't want a viewing. He was pointing out something funny.
The estate agent took offence, and proceded to dig himself a hole that
everyone gleefully filled in. If he'd shut up, it wouldn't have happened. Ce
la vie. And, one hopes, lesson learned. But I'm not betting on it.


Antoine van Gelder:

It's just that he was advertising a fully staffed ducal palace for a
song and then he went and got all upset when I asked him if the asking
price included those cute little guardsmen with the funny hats and those
really groovy gargoyles on the battlements and whether the gardens
required much maintenance.


Robin Galloway-Lunn:

Oh yes! The folks that go all red in the face when you say
"this is nice but what about the main house?"


Antoine van Gelder:

*shrug*
What's a boy to do ?


Gary Colman:

> Gary (I think?) who pointed that out is presumably not interested
> in the house
No, Rocco introduced the house-buying metaphor.
I've specifically remained silent on this one.
Simon was simply doing what many others have done in advertising
("coke is life" - go chase them and argue your points), and I
feel the hypercriticism against him has been unfounded, and it all
then degenerated into a mud-slinging event.
Personally, I believe if you wanted to embarrass the guy, do so
in pvt email ... flames seldom bring gratification to anyone but
the sender anyway, and often bring to the fore ones true colours.
I've certainly cemented some preconceptions I've been harbouring
about certain folk that live here.
But since I'm on the fence, I won't air my viewpoints here :-D


Damian Costa:

Too late! We're all offended now! :o)


Antoine van Gelder:

> I've certainly cemented some preconceptions I've been harbouring
> about certain folk that live here.
Nothing like a preconception cast in stone I tell you !
Nice'n'heavy like!
Could whack someone upside the earlobe with one of those I tell you !
*miscellaneousmachosoundingnoises*
- antoine.who.should.be.working.instead.of.being.deliberately.obtuse


Damian Costa:

LOL damian.is.doing.the.same.thing.well.not.exactly.but.its.close.


Jon Tullett:

>> Gary (I think?) who pointed that out is presumably not interested
>> in the house,
>
> No, Rocco introduced the house-buying metaphor.
Actually, by "that" I was referring to the very original comment on
"once in a lifetime". As in "Gary, who pointed THAT out, is presumably
not interested in THIS mixed metaphor." You've quoted me a bit out of
context, there, but I admit the mixed metaphor was a tad puzzling :)


Gary Colman:

cf. Antoine


Jon Tullett:

Ah. My mistake. Thanks for clearing that up. I should probably not be so
trigger happy about deleting old mail, but hey. I hate cluttered mail
folders. Sure, not doing it would avoid little confusions like this, but I
like my paranoia.
On the other hand, if anyone here actually knew how maintain attributions in
threads, it wouldn't have happened either. So there. It's your fault, see?!
And you all suck! And you're so unhelpful! You bastards! Why can't you just
conform to what I want in a forum? It's all your faults. You all suck. I try
and try and try to be nice, and you all just tease, and tell me I got
someone's name wrong, and never cut me any slack. You all suck. Gary should
change his name to Antoine. Why do I have to get it right? You suck.


John Anderson:

mee-yow. Saucer o' milk, table 2...


John Anderson:

This isn't about the original posting anymore. It's about someone who
refused to take a hint that he was doing something in a way that many other
people found inappropriate. I'd hazard a guess that most people here have
been at the wrong end of that particular stick, and because of that the
level of nastiness was fairly low.
Although people do find and offer work here, it isn't mainly a placing
agency. The kind of language that would be appropriate in an HR ad isn't
appropriate here because people here, as Sam pointed out, don't like it.


Simon Edwards:

Whatever, but all I seem to be finding here in the "HIVEMIND COMMUNITY"
is the incorrect help I'm sorry if I'm not the "INTELLECTUAL TYPE" of
hiveminder but I find that what generally happens is that the one who
insults anothers intellect is in fact the one who himself is not quite
the intellect.


Antoine van Gelder:

Then please let us not detain you in your quest for a community in which
your, admittedly, formiddable intellect will be appreciated for what it
is.
All the best and please accept my, personal, humblest apologies for the
terribly unfair way in which these utter bastards have treated you !
- antoine.a.bear.of.little.brain


John Anderson:

There's an old saying that starts off "When in Rome..." The community here
values a certain approach. You clearly value a different approach. Now
that's fine an' dandy, but if you want people here to help you, best you
take a little time to understand what's important to them. Having a sense
of humour is a good place to start.
Most of the early posts started off by being gentle and a little humourous,
mostly to give you a chance to back out gracefully. You didn't. Now you've
dug yourself in a deep hole, and worse, belittled the things that are
important to the community here. And you're surprised when people insult
you?
Be grateful that people here are intellectual enough not to flame you out
of existence. There's been a lot more compassion in the replies to your
posts than I've seen in most other online forums.


Jon Tullett:

Oh dear. He's shouting. It's all over.
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame33.html
Anyway. So far, you've received very little in the way in insult. What
you have got, is people trying to be helpful while maintaining a healthy
level of cynicism. If you ask for criticism, and get it, is that an insult?
I don't think so. If you want insults, there are a LOT of people on the
list who are more than capable of issuing a nasty barb or 20. So far,
consider yourself unscathed, and lucky for it.


Samantha Perry:

Most of us here aren't intellectual types either - and no-one is insulting
you for not bein' a 'so-called intellectual'. But you must realise that the
Hive consists largely of people who've grown up surrounded by hype and mass
marketing, advertising etc - and we don't believe anything that smacks of
hype or what I like to call "PR waffle" - all of which serves to make
something sound better than it is - is big on hype and low on fact.
Now the point everyone has been trying to make is - state your requirements
in plain simple English with no adjectives, and lots of facts.. and then -
guess what - we'll all give you a hand to find a person intead of trying to
improve your job specification writing skills.


Simon Edwards:

I don't see why I need to do such a thing. I'm sorry but I would like to
think that you guys would help me and that I do not need to rewrite the ad.
As far as I can see you all have rewritten the ad for me and thus I need not
do any more. You all seem to know what I am pretty much looking for and if
changing the ad makes you feel better then so be it. Choose whichever ad you
like and could you please help me out! Also I would appreciate it if the
Hive would please stop indirectly insulting me.


Antoine van Gelder:

> Also I would appreciate it if the
> Hive would please stop indirectly insulting me.
You'd prefer direct insults !?!
I'll try and do my best but it's not really my forte...
Doryphore! Slubberdegullion! Patagonian! Troglodyte!
Jelly-fish! Turncoat! Bashi-bazouk! Sycophant!
Kleptomaniac! Egoist! Tramp! Monopolizer!
Pockmark! Belemnite! Crook! Miserable earthworm!
Coconut! Vagabond! Sea-gherkin! Road-hog!
Harlequin! Heretic! Slave-trader! Blackamoor!
Vivisectionist! Black marketeer! Ophicleides! Dynamiter!
Corsair! Moujik! Rhizopod! Bootlegger!
Goggler! Villain! Bagpiper! Pyrographer!
Pachyrhizus! Toad! Bougainvillea! Cyclone!
Gallows-fodder! Politician! Baboon! Fuzzy-wuzzy!
Fancy-dress Fatima! Mountebank! Rat! Logarithm!
Cro-Magnon! Freshwater swab! Beast! Bully!
Anthropophagus!
Does that help ? O:-)


Johann Visagie:

> You'd prefer _direct_ insults !?!
http://kitenet.net/insults/


Gary Colman:

You slipped up, Antoine.
Fuzzy-wuzzy is *NOT* an insult. :-P

John Anderson:

It is if you're talking to an intellectual.
"Eah, I say, your thinking is woolly and your logic is Fuzzy-wuzzy."


Gary Colman:

that's an adjective describing the logic...
Fuzzy-Wuzzy is an adjective or adverb of note! :-D
(No, I have no idea why I'm pressing this point ...
been up since 05h20, so I can leave work early and go
relax by the lake this afternoon, and enjoy the 33degree
heat and sunshine).


Ivo Vegter:

Geez...I'm at posts of an hour and a half ago, and I still have a few dozen
to go. General approach to avoid threads like these:
Original poster:
Relax. Don't take things so seriously. If you don't like someone's criticism,
just ignore it. Perhaps one venomous barb aimed at someone who really took
the piss out of you (for the amusement of the rest of the list and the
restoration of your ego), but then let it rest.
Rest of the mob:
Chill. If you don't like someone's post, mention it, by all means. But
generating the amount of noise that's been on this list in the last two days
isn't particularly useful.


John Anderson:

Personally, I quite like threads like these. It's really interesting to see
how people react and what people say. You just have to look it from an
anthropological/psychological point of view.
I'm very aware that this is a bunch of individuals with feelings that can
be hurt. It's not a lab, it's not a test. But it is a real live community
in action.


Janet Kelso:

I loved Jon's description "spiky and hissy" and _made_ this whole thread
worthwhile.


Johann Visagie:

Personally, I have to agree with Antoine that Simon's explicit redefinition
of "once in a lifetime opportunity" made my day yesterday. I really
*will* read job ads with new-found understanding from now on!
BTW, Simon, none of this was aimed against you personally. It's just a
bunch of cynical old bastards finding some wry amusement in the way people
write these ads. In this industry you may as well retire if you can't
laugh at the irony and idiocy surrounding you.
Ask Ant's hero Scott Adams - he made a career out of it.  :-)


werner (quiet):

does anyone still have the original post that started this thread?
I'd like to read the ad again as I have forgotten what it said
(and how it said it)


Simon Edwards:

I am in urgent need of a web designer who is well versed in html, asp, and
Java. The job opportunity is a once in a lifetime offer where there are
limitless opportunities to grow and expand. This job is optimal for guys who
are also eager to study further in the IT industry. The job means that you
will administer one of the biggest and most active web sites in South
Africa. The company offering the position is based in Rosebank in the IS
building and is a small time ISP as well as a media streaming company.


Antoine van Gelder:

Nope, sorry, don't know anyone.

Ten days later

Ansie Vicente:

Thanks to all who got potential "slaves" to contact me. We've found
someone who's between jobs and will be perfect for the job.


Ant Brooks:

<smug aside to Simon>
See, Ansie posted an *honest* job request, and the hivemind helped :-).
</smug aside to Simon>


Simon Edwards:

Your worse than a women (no offence meant to those of the reffered to gender)
you remember the past and as soon as anything related pops up you use it against me!!!!
TUTTUTTUTTUTTUTTUT.....
Oh well whats done is done so live with it like I am currently doing but don't use it to abuse!!!


Janet Kelso:

I refer you to the archives for Johann's treatise on "your" and "you're"

One week later

Majordomo@hivemind.net:
---
Simon <simon@xxxxxxx.co.za> has unsubscribed from hivemind.
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Compiled by Ant Brooks (2000-09-20)

Recovered and added to wiki by Bretton Vine (2005-11-04)

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